Interview with film director Tetiana Khodakivska

The film director Tetiana Khodakivska made a film about the children deported by Russia and the dream help after her return. An interview by Emilia Sulek.

Tetiana Khodakivska, the topic of children and war runs like a sad thread through her professional life. How did it come about? 

In 2012 I directed the drama "Angels of War". It tells the history of Ukrainian children in a German camp during the Second World War, where they were misused for medical purposes. I am now working on a documentary that tells a similar story from today's Ukraine. Thousands of Ukrainian children are deported by Russia, deported to their rights, experiencing physical and psychological violence. This is shocking. Because it means that the story is repeated and we have learned nothing.
 

What should we have learned from it?

We still live in a society in which children are exposed to propaganda. Children know that they shouldn't get into foreign cars, but we did not teach them to defend themselves against manipulation. Maybe we just didn't have the means to do so. Or we wrongly assumed that the propaganda age was over once and for all.
 

They grew up in the formerly communist Ukraine. Have you had personal experience with propaganda from your own childhood there?

Yes, in the 1980s during my childhood, Ukraine was part of the USSR. At school I had to memorize poems about Vladimir Lenin and communism. The communist rule cost half of my family and millions of Ukrainians. At that time, the time hardly differs from today's Russian re -education camps in which the Ukrainian children have to sing the Russian national anthem. Obviously, Propaganda at the end of the Cold War has not disappeared from the earth's surface, as the stories of children told in my film also show.

How has propaganda changed since childhood?

In the past, propaganda was characterized by red banners and slogans. Today's propaganda is different. Russia produces propaganda on numerous digital channels, which reaches the private space of users via their smartphones. Artificial intelligence makes it easier than ever creating parallel worlds. Uninformed users can hardly verify their authenticity. Children are particularly vulnerable, although adults are not immune to such content.

»The children also have to show gratitude every day to their 'rescuers'. If you don't do this, you will be punished. "

Where does your interest in propaganda come from? 

From the television project »The Crimea. The teachings from the history "about the occupation of Crimea by Russia in 2014. At that time I analyzed tons of Russian media content. The stories appeared to me as absurd, such as the story of drugs filled with drugs, which were allegedly distributed on the Kiev Majdan during the orange revolution in 2014. Or the Russian television show "Crucified Young", in which an alleged eyewitness claimed that Ukrainian soldiers crossed children in Donba's children. Everything to justify Russian military intervention. At first I laughed at it, but after two or three weeks I started to doubt my perception. The mind struggles to dismiss all of this as a lie and searches for scraps of truth. It was terrifying to notice how I couldn't trust myself.       
 

Now Russia claims that it would save Ukrainian children.

It is paradoxical to bomb children and then save them. But yes, to "save" children is part of the Russian war narrative. The children I interviewed always mention it. This shows how present this narrative is in the Russian re -education camp. The children must also show gratitude every day to their "rescuers". If you do not do this, you will be punished. Medusa, a Russian internet medium that works out of exile, reported on a case in Mariupol, in which school children broke a desk. They had to apologize publicly. Not only for the table, but for their lack of gratitude. Everything was taken away from these children: their families, their home, their country. And then you should show gratitude?
 

And then there is the mess with confused information.

Yes, exactly. For every war event there are about ten variants in the Russian media, how it should have expired. Let's look at the siege of Mariupol as an example. At first it was said that it was set, then it was said to have been the Ukrainians who besieged the city, then there were further stories. You get lost in a cloud of contradicting information, in the end you cannot decide which version is now the right one.
 

And is it similar to the children who are being deported to Russia?

Yes, there are many different numbers in the media, sometimes higher, sometimes lower. People no longer know what to believe, so they don't believe in anything. This is also the effect of the propaganda. 
 

Sometimes Russian politicians admit that 700,000 children from Ukraine " refuge" in Russia. Then the Russian Federal Commissioner for Children's Rights, Marija Lwowa-Belowa, claims that not even 500 children were housed in Russian foster families. It is difficult to imagine numbers that are further apart than this.

Confusion to donate is a strategy.
 

But not all numbers are thought. 

No, children deported by 19,546 (as of January 16, 2024) are the Ukraine and the Unit. Nothing is known about the whereabouts of most children, especially the youngest. Russia gives them new names and exhibits new passes. According to the latest findings by the UN Committee for Children's Rights in January 2024, Russia has exhibited over 49,000 passes to Ukrainian children.
 

Russia's Federal Commissioner for Child Rights Insisates that no Ukrainian children are released for adoption in Russia.

Well, if your citizenship is changed before adoption, then you are no longer technically a Ukrainian. 

"Because of her disobedience, Kira was forced to a psychiatric clinic, which is a usual practice in Russian re -education camps."

The media are dependent on numbers. What could be real numbers?

Even a single kidnapped child is one too much. The Humanitrian Research Lab of the University of Yale analyzed Russian open source data and came to the knowledge that at least 130,000 Ukrainian children were deported to Russia. Other estimates are even higher. It is important to say: not only the Ukrainian government is trying to get the truth, but also many independent research institutions. Your numbers are based on real data. In contrast to those from the Kremlin. There is zero transparency there.
 

In order to save a single child, an entire team is needed to people. So far, over 400 children have been brought back home. Your team visited the repatriated children in Cherson and Charkiw, in Kiev and Odessa.

Yes. We carried out over sixty interviews and ten film -relevant drawing sessions. In the film, three protagonists, Kira (10), Taisa (14) and Artem (15), can be seen, but other children also contributed to the film.
 

Kira, Taisa and Artem have had six months deportation. What did you experience?

Because of her disobedience, Kira was forced to a psychiatric clinic, which is a usual practice in Russian re -education camps. Artem had to choose between Russian military training and the punishment in an insulation room. Taisa contributed the title to the film. It was forced to destroy her sweater because the Ukrainian colors are banned blue and yellow in the camp. They have all experienced different forms of violence. Their stories reflect the thousands of other children.
 

How do you choose the children?

Save Ukraine, the organization, which coordinates the rescue campaigns of the deported children, is in contact with the parents and suggests a meeting with us. The child and the parents decide for themselves whether they are ready for it. At our meetings, the children can draw the experience or just talk. Some of the children have never talked about their experiences before, but are ready to draw them. Whatever the communication medium you choose, the golden rule is: we follow the children. If you have any questions, then you can ask them. If you don't want to go on, we stop at any time. The stories are the property of the children, we are only there to receive these stories.  
 

But you ask questions?

Yes, they come in a natural way, mostly when drawing: How many beds were in the room? Was there a window? Our conversations are not an interrogation, they are processes in which the children can remember things again.
 

How is such a drawing session?

We start with the past, the original place of residence and the child's home. Then we go on a journey through time. The time sequence of events is often confused. A camp, then the next camp, constantly new places, a coming and going. Many journalists lose track. Drawing brings a certain order to the chaos experienced. We always end the conversations with something positive, a view, a dream, a child's wish. This is the rough discussion plan, but in the end it is a flow the direction of which the children determine.
 

Who is there at the meetings?

At least one parent and the child, the sound director and the cameraman. The*the artists, the child and I, we draw. I didn't want to do this originally because drawing is not one of my strengths. But, we found that the children encourage it: if I can, the child can do that too. The child often takes over the direction, the artists become an extent.  
 

In your film you use these drawings and animations based on the drawings. But wasn't that not just a formal decision?

The animation helps us to protect the identity of the children. Together with the Ukrainian animator Dana Danylova, we developed a two -layer animation style. This style makes it clear how identity can be manipulated and how memories change under the pressure of propaganda, disinformation and violence. This not only illustrates what we otherwise cannot show, but it also comes closer to the experience. The viewer can better understand the effects of the propaganda projected on the reality and the resulting confusion.
 

What therapeutic value do the drawings have?

Drawing has many advantages. First, the child remembers things that it didn't seem to remember beforehand. The child can go to the earlier part of the drawing at any time to add something. Second, the drawings are honest. It is easy to lie with words, with pictures it doesn't work that way. And finally, when everything is on paper, the child also has an overview of what it has experienced.
 

Do you stop when you feel that the story is over now?

For the children, their stories have a very clear end. These are stories of kidnapping that complete when the child comes home. However, some stories end in stages, depending on the constitution of the child. Our meetings are often very emotional. There were moments when even the team members asked for a break. 
 

Which is the biggest challenge?

Some details are simply bad. If you hear about sexual violence against children or by children who are accommodated in a psychiatric clinic to punish them because they have refused to sing the Russian national anthem or to complete Russian military training, it is a challenge to keep a clear head. But not only the topic, but also the environment is extreme. In Cherson we filmed in June 2023 shortly after the Kachowka dam from Russian troops. The front was just a few kilometers from our location.

"These children are subjected to massive brainwashing in the re -education camps."

How did you prepare for your work?

The entire team has previously completed a training session to prepare for emotionally challenging interviews. We also talked to lawyers about how to talk to children so that their statements can be used as legal evidence. These children are witnesses to Russian war crimes: delay, mental torture, sexual abuse, refusal to help medical help in the camps. So Russia does not let them go.
 

Did the meetings question their assumptions?

These children are subjected to massive brainwashing in the re -education camps. They often say that it was a happy time, at least at the beginning. After all, they also made friends there, they were by the sea. It was probably a happy time in some way. The children are entitled to say that. Accepting such a statement can be difficult because it questions its own assumptions.
 

A "stolen childhood" is often spoken of in the media.

These children have a childhood. Perhaps cartridges may be their new toys and destroyed houses their playgrounds, but it is still their childhood. It is disrespectful to give the impression that that time is not worth being called childhood. 
 

What would you say to those people who doubt the credibility of the children's statements?

The stories are confirmed. If 40 children - regardless of one another - tell me about insulation rooms in the camps, then that is no coincidence. However, if you don't tell something so as not to hurt your or your friend's dignity, that's your right. We weren't in their situation, we cannot judge about it.
 

Who is part of your team?

These are some people and institutions. There is a Ukrainian NGO "Girls" that accompanies women and children and their families psychologically. The stigma, which is associated with psychological care, is a Soviet legacy. It is time that this changes. We also work closely with the Ukrainian artist Alevina Kakhidze and other artists on site. There is also our production company Pronto Film. The Harriman Institute of the Columbia University and the Prague Civil Society Center also support us. We also work closely with Save Ukraine. We are financed by Terre des Hommes Germany, which are committed to children's rights and for the safety of children.      
 

The film is just part of your project. What is the other part?

The other part is an archive with certificates from repatriated children. This is raw material that is available to investigative officers, educational scientists and other researchers. This archive is integrated into the Ukraine War archive, but has its own secure identity with an additional protocol to protect information about children. If we have not managed to ensure that the story does not repeat itself, we should at least bundle our forces, academically, artistic, investigative and legal to document the facts in order to bring those responsible to court and to help the children process these dramatic events.
 

What else can we do for these children?

Roofed children get a lot of attention. But it subsides over time. It is important that we don't let it fall. We therefore call you regularly, ask if you need something. Some children send us diaries or drawings. You can see that they are looking for contact. Especially in Cherson, where they live in complete isolation. No school is open there, the children cannot get out, their friends don't see. Drawing, dancing, everything that somehow involves the body helps the children to process what they have experienced - even if it is only online.
 

Do the children also get a lot of attention from the media?

Yes, that's why legal care is important. We have no freedom of fools with the children's data. Before we use data, we make sure that parents and children consent to use their names or pictures. Not all journalists do this. A recently published article used names, last name, age, place of residence and even photos of the children. In addition, the children were disparaged in the article because they had to accept Russian passes. It may be that the editors require this sensitive data, then you have to intervene and insist on ethical principles. This is the responsibility of the journalists.
 

Are there topics that you would not address in the film?

Yes, for example sexual abuse. Even if I would report completely anonymized or in the form of animation, other children would be able to identify who it was. Even if parents and child would agree to this at a moment, they could change their opinion in a few years. I think it is morally reprehensible to report on such stories. In such cases, we consult Terre des Hommes and then make a decision in the team.   
 

How far has the film advanced?

More and more children are finding their way back. Your families come up to us and ask us for a meeting. 20 children are currently waiting for discussions. We try to come to Ukraine's funds for research trips and are looking for partners for the co -production of the film. If everything goes, the film will come to cinemas in 2025.
 

The violence that the children are exposed to in these camps aims to change their identity. Are the children back in Ukraine?

As long as the war lasts in Ukraine, nobody is sure, but the children are now at home. Finding yourself back is also a process. These children have to learn many things new or again. For example, a girl said she had to learn to make her own decisions. That was forbidden in the camp. With external support, it is easier for the children to find their way back and to be themselves. Therefore: do not forget these children, even if other messages overshadow their stories.
 

19.02.2024